Comments on: Too Much Heaven On Their Minds http://electra.blogsome.com/2009/05/04/too-much-heaven-on-their-minds/ i am a mess in my open-eyed youth. Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:52:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: electra http://electra.blogsome.com/2009/05/04/too-much-heaven-on-their-minds/#comment-4855 Thu, 07 May 2009 07:50:33 +0100 http://electra.blogsome.com/2009/05/04/too-much-heaven-on-their-minds/#comment-4855 sittingnut: What I am trying to say, is that I believe morality is kind of an in-built system. I think humans inherently know that it is wrong to kill each other, because we have life too and value it so much, we would automatically know that what we are doing can't be 'right'. So I don't think religion is 'necessary' as such. I think humans would have value systems and know what's wrong and right (meaning, what would further our development as a species and what would not) anyway. Obviously killing each other would not be suitable as it would decrease our chance of surviving as a species that lives in communities. If anyone were able to do whatever they pleased, society would break down. Also, there is state law, which clearly tells us what is lawful and what is not, and there is due punishment for what is unlawful. I just don't think religion is a good reference point for morality, because while to forbids certain things, it also encourages certain things in it's name which would otherwise be forbidden by any law or moral code. Of course I judge, but I judge anyway even though I do not believe in God. I make judgments based on my basic sense of what is acceptable and what is not, and I simply do not do to others what I wouldn't want done to me. I have values and a sense of goodness that has come with upbringing and common sense, not of religion. Also I think it's kind of shit if you are only good because you think you will be rewarded, and not bad because you fear punishment. Ultimately I think religion is only applicable to very specific parts of life, but it fails to point this out, so people end up applying it to their whole life and then the results are a disaster. sittingnut: What I am trying to say, is that I believe morality is kind of an in-built system. I think humans inherently know that it is wrong to kill each other, because we have life too and value it so much, we would automatically know that what we are doing can’t be ‘right’. So I don’t think religion is ‘necessary’ as such. I think humans would have value systems and know what’s wrong and right (meaning, what would further our development as a species and what would not) anyway. Obviously killing each other would not be suitable as it would decrease our chance of surviving as a species that lives in communities. If anyone were able to do whatever they pleased, society would break down. Also, there is state law, which clearly tells us what is lawful and what is not, and there is due punishment for what is unlawful. I just don’t think religion is a good reference point for morality, because while to forbids certain things, it also encourages certain things in it’s name which would otherwise be forbidden by any law or moral code. Of course I judge, but I judge anyway even though I do not believe in God. I make judgments based on my basic sense of what is acceptable and what is not, and I simply do not do to others what I wouldn’t want done to me. I have values and a sense of goodness that has come with upbringing and common sense, not of religion. Also I think it’s kind of shit if you are only good because you think you will be rewarded, and not bad because you fear punishment.

Ultimately I think religion is only applicable to very specific parts of life, but it fails to point this out, so people end up applying it to their whole life and then the results are a disaster.

]]> by: sittingnut http://electra.blogsome.com/2009/05/04/too-much-heaven-on-their-minds/#comment-4849 Wed, 06 May 2009 18:05:46 +0100 http://electra.blogsome.com/2009/05/04/too-much-heaven-on-their-minds/#comment-4849 you are one confused person. fact is if you want a value system ( that is "morality" )not confined to you alone, you need a religion based on belief in some supernatural phenomena (buddhsim also does this in spite of claims to otherwise. see my comment in your next post ) bc values are subjective and relative and and cannot be objectively verified. if you have values you defend them bc otherwise no point in having values. hence sometimes war. so you have to choose whether you want values or not. if you are prepared to live in a world without values where everyone in theory can do what they want, by all means do so. but then you should not judge anything bc judging is evaluation ( in full sense). you cannot condemn pedophilia, murder, rape ... anything. in fact you cannot judge or condemn war or religion either . you cannot ask whether bible is " really a book that you want to be giving your kids for moral guidance?" why not? you are making a value judgment. a muslim can ask that, a true atheist cannot but you do make value judgments here. you are not "just sitting at home and merely not believing" as you claim . you are doing what believers do. judging . once you judge and if you are sincere you sometimes have to act on that judgment. say you see someone doing something vile. do you intervene? you probaly will ( a true atheist will not judge at all, and go "sit at home") . once you have action, you will have violence (depending on the case). all i said above follows logically, if you have a value system that extend beyond your inner self. and all such systems are religions. but you claim you are an atheist. ha! you acted just like a religious fundamentalist when you wrote this . only they are honest. you are not - richard dawkins of this world ( repeating eighteenth century arguments about god using current science as voltaire or whatever did then using then current science ) cannot help you to get out of this irrational hole. you have to search your own beliefs and values and their origins first. honestly instead repeating things you have not really examined carefully. be true to yourself . don't lie - btw it is not just "‘national interest’, ‘public security’, ‘the destiny of a state’," but also "human rights", "justice", "democracy ", "freedom ", all are values and ultimately religions. and so lead to war . why not be honest ? :-) you are one confused person.

fact is if you want a value system ( that is “morality” )not confined to you alone, you need a religion based on belief in some supernatural phenomena (buddhsim also does this in spite of claims to otherwise. see my comment in your next post ) bc values are subjective and relative and and cannot be objectively verified.

if you have values you defend them bc otherwise no point in having values. hence sometimes war.

so you have to choose whether you want values or not.
if you are prepared to live in a world without values where everyone in theory can do what they want, by all means do so. but then you should not judge anything bc judging is evaluation ( in full sense).
you cannot condemn pedophilia, murder, rape … anything. in fact you cannot judge or condemn war or religion either . you cannot ask whether bible is ” really a book that you want to be giving your kids for moral guidance?”
why not? you are making a value judgment.
a muslim can ask that, a true atheist cannot

but you do make value judgments here.
you are not “just sitting at home and merely not believing” as you claim . you are doing what believers do. judging .

once you judge and if you are sincere you sometimes have to act on that judgment.
say you see someone doing something vile. do you intervene? you probaly will ( a true atheist will not judge at all, and go “sit at home”) .
once you have action, you will have violence (depending on the case).

all i said above follows logically, if you have a value system that extend beyond your inner self. and all such systems are religions.
but you claim you are an atheist. ha!

you acted just like a religious fundamentalist when you wrote this . only they are honest. you are not

-
richard dawkins of this world ( repeating eighteenth century arguments about god using current science as voltaire or whatever did then using then current science ) cannot help you to get out of this irrational hole. you have to search your own beliefs and values and their origins first. honestly instead repeating things you have not really examined carefully.
be true to yourself . don’t lie

-
btw it is not just “‘national interest’, ‘public security’, ‘the destiny of a state’,” but also “human rights”, “justice”, “democracy “, “freedom “, all are values and ultimately religions. and so lead to war . why not be honest ? :-)

]]>